Interviews

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Post image for Robert Williams, CEO, Conversive, Inc.

Current title and employer?

Chairman and Chief Executive Officer, Conversive, Inc.

Sounds fancy, but what do you really do?

I run a software company. Most of the time, that means I’m the den mother for a bunch of people trying to accomplish a bunch of different tasks at the same time without screwing each other up. My job is to keep them all running in the same direction. In a really good week, they not only move in the same direction, their movements mutually reinforce one another and the company takes another step forward. In a great week, I have enough time left over to actually promote the company’s message, build our visibility and talk with our clients.

Law school?

Boalt Hall.

Does anyone care where you went to law school or what your class rank was?

No one cares about any of that stuff in my business. Or in the real world, for that matter. It’s not as though I work with dumb people who don’t appreciate academic accomplishments. It’s just that where I am now those achievements have very little applicability. The law is unique in many ways. It really is a continuation of academia by other means. Resumes count. Your “brand” as a lawyer builds on a foundation of your law school, journals, clerkships, etc. But you’re not going to be a better manager than the next guy because you were on Law Review. Those things just don’t matter. Where I am, it’s more like my tribe of software geeks and I are trying to cross the Sinai and get to the land of sustainable revenues before hostile tribes eat our lunch or possibly even us. You’re either doing it or you’re not. Your ideas live and die on a day-to-day basis, and your credibility lives or dies with them. If you’re not getting there, no one’s going to feel any better about you just because you graduated in the top 5% of your class.

What firms did you work at?

Graham & James

Then Riordan & McKinzie

Both have been scooped up by mega-firms.

Practice area?

Corporate. I started out buying America for the Japanese at Graham & James. Then I worked in corporate finance at Riordan & McKinzie. Our principal clients were VCs, LBO funds and their portfolio companies. So we did everything—private financings, M&A, IPOs, etc.

Worst memory of being a lawyer?

Probably looking at my one-year-old son sleeping. I had been working on a deal, and I realized that I hadn’t seen him awake in two weeks and hadn’t seen him in the daylight in over a month.

Best memory of being a lawyer?

I did a deal with one of the partners at Riordan, who was actually a great guy. We finalized negotiations in New York and then closed the deal in Bermuda. I spent all night getting the docs ready for the closing. We closed in the morning surrounded by all these bankers wearing cranberry shorts, black shoes and socks. I had a couple of hours to go riding around the island on a moped looking for pink sand beaches before the closing dinner at a picturesque restaurant. It in no way resembled any other deal that I’ve ever worked on.

Describe your “I have to get the f*** out of here” epiphany?

There were many. I came out of law school straight into a recession. I learned very quickly to be concerned about the capabilities and priorities of law firm management. Like someone who knows their marriage won’t last right after they walk down the aisle, there were many, many moments of clarity while I was looking for the exit. I was shocked, overall, by what poor businesspeople most lawyers are. I also started to look at the telephone very differently. I realized that after 4:00 in the afternoon, and especially on Fridays, the telephone had a right end and a wrong end. Like a gun. And I was on the wrong end.

However, there was one moment of confirmation that was a real biggie. There was an associate a couple of years ahead of me, who I worked with a lot. Columbia Law school, Harlan Fiske Stone Scholar, brilliant, blah, blah, blah. But even more than that, this guy pulled insane hours. He was like Superman. When we did a securities filing, we wouldn’t just send it in electronically—this guy would get on the redeye and file the damn hard copy in person at the SEC the next morning. Then he’d fly home in time to bill some more hours that afternoon. He was the guy who always remembered obscure regulations at opportune moments, had perfect analysis, was an absurdly efficient worker and the clients loved his guts.

And he got passed over for partner.

I took one look at that scenario, and I knew that I was screwed. Not just a little screwed—completely dead. It was obvious that even if your performance was outstanding, the law firm remained a rigid hierarchy where you had to have sponsorship. Doing great work is not enough. I knew that to thrive in that environment I would have to kiss up in a very serious way to some people that I deeply detested. And let’s face it. There aren’t that many people that you are really, sincerely going to like after spending more than 2,000 hours a year in their company. The notion of pulling big hours and then electively spending extra time at work sucking up was just a non-starter for me. It became very clear that I wasn’t going to be able to make a life out of that.

Any advice for bitter lawyers out there looking to change careers?

First, take a personal inventory of what kind of non-lawyer qualities you have. In other words, what do you really want to do, and what are you good at? Is it really the practice of law that you dislike, or just practicing law in a firm? For many attorneys, the big company in-house counsel route can be very appealing. It does put you on the right side of the telephone on Friday afternoons. If you decide that you really don’t want to practice law, then you’d better figure out what else you’re good at and how can you make a living at it.

Second, realize it’s going to take a lot of time. That means both that it is probably a process of years and that you have to devote time to it constantly. Stop schmoozing partners and start networking with people in your areas of interest.

Finally, you should realize that you are going to be taking on more risk. A lot more risk. Financial risk, reputational risk, social risk. Just to be clear here, we are not talking about market risk, secular risk or anything else that is abstract, or that can be diversified away with good portfolio management. We are talking about the very, very real probability that you personally will fail. If you learn to accept that risk is inevitable, you may also find that sometimes the best exit is the most audacious one. Write a bestseller, or start a new political party, or become the world’s best wine critic. Lawyers have done all of those things, and let me tell you, they didn’t care what their partners said about them after they were gone. It’s a big world out there and no one cares if you made Law Review.

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Post image for Carlos Goodman, Entertainment Attorney

Title and Employer?

Partner in Bloom, Hergott, Diemer, Rosenthal, LaViolette & Feldman, LLP, an entertainment firm in Beverly Hills that specializes in motion pictures and television.

So what does a hotshot entertainment lawyer really do?

Complain about “the business” while eating lunch at a fancy Hollywood restaurant. When not busy doing that, an entertainment lawyer is primarily involved with making deals for “talent”—actors, directors, writers, and producers. This means working in tandem with a client’s agent to negotiate the economics and other key points of a deal, typically against the studios’ business affairs lawyers. The lawyer then negotiates the written contract. And in Hollywood, as they say, the finished contract is simply the beginning of the negotiation.

What is fun about entertainment law in Hollywood is that it’s a fairly small community, and it’s very interpersonal. In many instances, you have to use your relationships to accomplish certain things for your clients. You also have lots of opportunities to put together unique, creative deals—whether because you have the leverage with a hot client or because the business is changing as a result of new media—and that can make certain negotiations very dynamic.

Who does your firm represent?

Our firm represents several A-list talents in Hollywood—people like Brad Pitt, Johnny Depp, and many of the top directors and producers in the business.

What law school did you go to?

UCLA.

What was your first job out of law school?

Gibson, Dunn & Crutcher in its New York office in the late 1980’s.

Practice area?

Litigation. I worked mainly on the Exxon Valdez oil spill litigation, which was an obvious and natural launching pad to get into Hollywood—oily and slick.

How did you make the transition from corporate litigator to entertainment attorney?

Well, what is it they say? Acknowledging the problem is half the struggle. It’s not hard to know something is wrong when you bill 250 hours a month, month after month, on matters where you have no connection to the client or any real stake in the outcome personally.

It’s fine to work hard, but the law, like any business, is more fun when you can be entrepreneurial and have a direct relationship with your clients. And I didn’t get the feeling that I was going to become best friends with any Fortune 500 CEOs anytime soon at the age of 26, especially when my chief social circle was other associates like me eating take-out Chinese food at 10 p.m. every night in the office.

I saw entertainment law as a way of working with individual clients, people who were my age, and with whom I could grow. Looking back on that now, entertainment law gave me that. One of my very first clients was Quentin Tarantino and I worked with him on making “Reservoir Dogs.” Quentin and I have worked together for seventeen years, and I just finished closing the deal for his new movie “Inglorious Bastards.”

As far as making the transition, I had a friend during law school who had become a music lawyer at a Los Angeles firm that also had a motion picture practice group. She introduced me to some of the lawyers at the firm, and I got a job doing motion picture work. I think the fact that I was young and relatively cheap, and working at a top firm, helped me get the opportunity.

Does being a former litigator help you in your current job negotiating deals for movie stars and A-list directors?

Not really. I do think that working at a good firm straight out of law school helped show me quickly what it meant to be a professional. I always tell young lawyers that it’s a good thing to work at the best firm you can, to be exposed for a while to the level of excellence you do find at places like Gibson Dunn. But you have to be careful of the trap at elite firms—they have a way of successfully stroking their good people to distract them from how unfulfilling a lot of that work can be in the long run. And before you know it, you’re too senior (or too bitter!) to make a successful transition to something more entrepreneurial or satisfying.

Any advice for bitter lawyers out there looking to change jobs?

When I decided to leave the “mothership” of a big firm, I felt like I was taking a risk. And I did have to pay my dues in that transition, no question. But I think bitter lawyers need to realize they can be taking a greater risk by avoiding change and waiting too long to try to transition into something different. I think it’s important when you’re in a big firm to look at the people who are four or five years ahead of you and see what their lives are like—and ask yourself, is that the type of career or life you want? Is that pasty-faced, cynical sixth-year associate the type of person you are striving to be? Use those intermediate people as projections of what your future will be. But you don’t need to actually live through those extra four or five years yourself! The evidence is right there in front of you.

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Post image for Craig Turk, Television Writer/Producer

Current title and employer?

Supervising Producer, Private Practice

Sounds fancy, but what do you really do?

I’m a television writer. Basically, I sit around with the other members of our show’s staff (on Private Practice, there are 8 of us) and try to come up with stories that will keep you from switching over to Ice Road Truckers.

When we hit on something that seems like it could work—and then check to make sure that it wasn’t done previously on, say, ER or The Love Boat—we break it out scene-by-scene and fill in the details of who does what to whom.

Sometimes, the process is pretty slow, either because you can’t figure out how to credibly get where you want to go, or because you’re distracted by the toys that are placed strategically around our writers’ room. I’m sure some stoney guy on Starsky & Hutch just wanted to play Hungry, Hungry Hippos at work and found an article about children’s playthings stimulating adult creativity for cover, but now it’s an accepted thing: writers need toys.

Anyway, we eventually get the story broken, and then one of the writers goes off into a dark hole somewhere and cranks out the actual script. This is the fun, coming up with witty dialogue part—it’s what everyone imagines the job to be. In reality, it’s a relatively small part of the process; you spend more time breaking the stories, and then re-writing drafts, than you do sitting in Starbucks, stroking your chin, plucking bon mots out of the air. But for the few days you’re off doing it, you do get to act all precious and artist-like, telling anyone who dares to call before noon or criticize you for drinking during the day that you’re “on script.”

Now, that’s how it works on Private Practice. (For those of you with a Y chromosome, that’s the spin-off from Grey’s Anatomy.) On Boston Legal, the show that I worked on for the past few seasons, it was pretty different.

Basically, we, the writers, came up with story ideas and pitched them to our boss, David E. Kelley. Given that David has written, conservatively, nine million hours of television, it wasn’t always an easy sell. But, if he did like something, we just sat down and wrote it. There wasn’t really a writers room, or any kind of hand-holding. And it was very much survival of the fittest.

If what you wrote was good, you’d get to go downstairs a couple of weeks later and watch James Spader and Captain Kirk say your words. If what you wrote was decent, you’d get to watch them say David’s words in a few of the locations you specified in your draft. Not quite as thrilling, but David was always gracious about giving credit, so your parents and friends came away thinking you actually knew how to write. If what you gave to David was not very good, he just never said anything, your name didn’t appear on any scripts, and people secretly wondered what you did all day.

Now, on any show, in addition to writing, you do have some responsibilities as a producer: casting actors, working with directors on set, editing, etc. It’s an interesting part of the job, and probably as important to the final product as the actual writing. But, unless you’re talking to the ghost of Aaron Spelling, don’t ever let anyone describe themselves to you as a television “producer.” It would be like the guy sitting down the hall from you right now describing himself as an oral advocate, or a strategic litigation consultant. It’s part of what you do, but if it’s how you identify yourself, you’re an asshole.

Law school? Class rank? Law review?

No offense intended to the fine folks behind Bitter Lawyer, but this question is a little lame, in a freshman-year-of-college-what’s-your-SAT-score kind of way. And, I think, it’s also kind of irrelevant.

Where you went to law school, and how you did—not to mention whether you got suckered into sub-citing articles on grazing rights and ERISA reform for lazy professors in exchange for “prestige”—probably won’t matter much if you’re about to switch careers. I know that I spent the last two years writing fart jokes for William Shatner on Boston Legal, and my sub-par performance in Contracts almost never came up.

All that said, I went to Harvard, did pretty well, but the Law Review wanted nothing to do with me.

At what firms did you work?

Wiley, Rein & Fielding (Washington, D.C.)
O’Melveny & Myers (Los Angeles)

Practice area?

In D.C., I specialized—and by “specialized” I mean sat on the same floor as partners who actually knew something about—election law & government ethics. It was actually pretty interesting, as legal work goes.

In L.A., I did straight, soul-sucking, spirit-crushing corporate litigation. Great firm, great people, but the actual work was just horrendous.

Worst memory of being a lawyer?

Huge patent case in front of the International Trade Commission. Based on the fact that I know nothing about the absurdly complicated and esoteric issues being litigated, I am tapped for the trial team.

Since I just moved away from Washington, D.C. two months earlier, I’m not eager to leave L.A. and go back, especially in the dead of winter. And when I find out I’m joining a group of associates from my firm who call themselves, unselfconsciously, the “law dogs,” I weep a little.

I show up and am immediately detailed to the 24-hour war room. The war room that is staffed, exclusively, by the law dogs and me. Mind you, there are four big firms, dozens of lawyers, on our side of this trial. But none, apparently, are hardcore enough to deal with the endless motions in limine and tough-to-get dinner reservations for the partners that becomes the stuff of our daily existence.

While most of the other attorneys show up for our once-a-day strategy sessions and then go about the difficult business of stretching their per diems to cover food, booze, and entertainment, I’m trapped billing 100+ hours a week. The law dogs and I trade off sleeping every other night, maybe every third, in shifts. This goes on for the entire month of December, right up until Christmas, a holiday that even the scroogiest quasi-judicial federal magistrate respects.

I fly back to L.A., wiped out and incredibly bitter, intent on quitting—only to find out that we have to do something called “findings of fact.” Basically, I have to relive the entire miserable experience, going back through the trial transcript and figuring out what the hell happened, and whether we had proved our case. This meant another month in a windowless war room, four more 100-hour weeks.

Finally, mercifully, it came to an end. I took the day off after we handed in our final papers, and never walked back into my office again.

Best memory of being a lawyer?

Interestingly, my best memory came as a result of the worst memory described above. After I left the firm, I was invited to and wound up attending the wedding of one of the law dogs. As I was totally getting it done on the dance floor, I literally bumped into (his fault, not mine) one of the partners who I’d worked for on the ITC case. He smiled, asked what I’d been working on. I told him that I’d just finished doing a political campaign, and had also sold my first script. He gave me a fake, I’m-impressed head nod, then asked how that was impacting my hours. At first I thought he was kidding—I’d left the firm fully two years earlier. But he wasn’t.

When I broke the news to him, he didn’t seem to care much, but asked if I’d call the firm’s office manager and tell her officially that I wasn’t coming back. “We could use your office,” he told me. Turns out, since I hadn’t boxed up and taken home any of my stuff, the firm had kept my office for me, assuming I’d be back. I liked imagining desperate partners, stopping by my office on random Friday afternoons, only to find an empty chair.

Please describe your “I have to get the f*** out of here” epiphany?

I knew on my very first day at a firm that I had made a mistake—there was no new-job buzz. I finally had a secretary, business cards, and access to unlimited redwelds, but all I could do was look out my window into the window of the rehab center three feet across the alley and wish that I was certified to pack peoples’ knees in ice. However, it took a profoundly miserable experience like the ITC trial, and the realization that I couldn’t stomach what other lawyers cherished, to force me to look for something else.

Any advice for Bitter Lawyers out there looking to change careers?

Jump. It’s hard when you have real responsibilities—family, lease on a new 7 Series, whatever—and I suppose I should add some sort of caveat so I don’t wind up getting sued and having to pay off some jackass from Stanford’s loans. But, think about it: Have you ever heard someone say that they really regret having left a firm? At the very least, you won’t be billing hours anymore. You might be making Fancy Feast nachos for a while, but it’s worth it. Figure out what you’d do if you could do anything, and at least give it a shot.

It’s a huge cliché, but I think essentially true: life’s too short to hate what you do.

Read more about Craig Turk in the ABA Journal and about his involvement in Sen. John McCain’s campaign in TV Guide.

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Post image for Marc Korman, Partner, Endeavor Talent Agency

Title and Employer?

Partner, Endeavor Talent Agency.

Okay, but what do you really do?

I represent writers and directors. My primary responsibility is to find them interesting creative and financial opportunities in television and film.

Law school, class rank?

Chicago–Kent College of Law. Top 10%.

What firms did you work at?

Cook County Public Defender. Pat Boyle and Associates. And for a year of so, I had my own firm. Represented restaurant and nightclub owners—probably because I worked nights as a bartender to make extra money.

Practice area?

Criminal, Personal Injury and some transactional stuff (relating to bars and restaurants).

Worst memory of being a lawyer?

Pleadings and discovery.

Best memory of being a lawyer?

Being a public defender. I loved it. It was exciting and fun and I felt like I was actually doing something real. The only drawback was the money. I made about $27,500 a year, which didn’t go too far in Chicago. So I supplemented my income by bartending, drafting appeals for private criminal attorneys and handling “pain in the ass” transactions for friends. Truth is, when I added everything up, I actually made more money than most of my friends at the big firms—and unlike them, I actually had some fun.

Describe your “I have to get the f*** out of here” epiphany.

There wasn’t really one specific moment. Like I said, I actually liked being a lawyer. So it wasn’t really some major, earth-shattering epiphany. It was more of a gradual thing.

So how does a former Public Defender from Chicago hit it big in Hollywood?

After being a lawyer for seven years or so, I started asking myself those early-thirties “meaning of life” questions, like “Was I really meant to be a lawyer?” “Is it wrong to crave a more exciting job?” I was working for a civil litigation firm at the time and I was bored. I wanted a more fast-paced, exciting challenge. For some reason, I picked LA and the entertainment business. Not really sure why. It just sounded fun. So I sold my loft and decided to move west.

You just moved to LA and said “Here I am?”

Kind of. But nobody cared. I was 32, didn’t know anyone—and didn’t even know what kind of job I wanted. But that was irrelevant. Or just stupid. Anyway, call it fate or serendipidity, but just prior to moving, I met a few guys who were making a movie in Chicago. They’d come into the bar where I was working and get drunk and have a wild time. They were quickly dubbed the “cool movie guys in town for the summer.” Long story short, one of them offered me his apartment for a week to get settled—and I ended up living there for four years. The “cool guys” became my LA family.

So you get to LA, then what??

I landed a part-time job at New World Television. Sounds sort of sexy, but it wasn’t. They were going out of business and needed some hack attorney—like me—to help with remaining production issues. The only thing I did during those three months was concentrate on finding a new job. I called every person listed on the New World phone sheet and took anyone and everyone out for drinks, breakfasts, coffees…Whatever, wherever, so long as they knew more than me…which included every person in LA.

Shortly thereafter, I landed a job in the legal affairs department at ABC. I think the head of the department felt sorry for me. Honest. He was from Chicago, went to a no-name law school like me… So he gave me a job drafting licensee agreements. Problem was, I’d never really drafted a contract. So I sucked at it. Each day I would walk into my bosses’ respective offices to discover that I was an even bigger moron than I was the day before. And trust me, the job wasn’t glamorous. But for seeing Drew Carey in the cafeteria once, I was completely disconnected from “Hollywood.” I might as well have been working at some mid-size firm in Akron. It was right around then that I decided to become an agent. They seemed to have the best job in Hollywood. They made deals, but didn’t have to worry about minute details. But being a loser licensee lawyer isn’t exactly the fast track to agent superstardom. So I had to start my job search all over again.

How did you transition from “loser licensee lawyer” to agent?

It wasn’t easy, trust me. The first thing I did was call up some agents I knew and offer to work for free—but they all said no. In fact, they thought I was insane. So I started looking for people with similar backgrounds to me who might give me a break—or like the guy at ABC, feel sorry for me. When I discovered that one of the top literary agents in town was a former public defender, I made a beeline for his office. But the receptionist wouldn’t let me in the door. I tried calling him a bunch of times, but his assistant wouldn’t put me through. So I basically stalked him. Found out where he parked his car and waited for him. Unfortunately, when he saw me standing by his car, he was terrified. I quickly explained who I was and what I wanted, and he was kind enough to let me take him out for a drink later in the week. Though he didn’t offer me a job, he did give me some great advice: Get a job as a business affairs executive. Learn how to negotiate deals on behalf studios or networks. After a few years, you’ll have something (deal making experience) to offer agencies.

After about a month, I got an entry-level job at Fox Television Studios as a business affairs executive. I negotiated actor, writer and director deals for about a year, established more relationships and felt like I was finally ready to become an agent. Again, I went around and offered my services for free to the major agencies—and again, they all said no (and continued to think I was some annoying, freakish pest).

A month later, I got an offer to work as a business affairs executive at a new management/production firm founded by Michael Ovitz, who was, at that point in time, the most powerful man in Hollywood. So I said yes. I immediately began to harass the various managers, asking them how to break into the talent-representation side of the biz. (Agents and managers basically do the same thing. The main difference is that agents are more heavily regulated under state law and can’t “produce.”) But no one was interested in helping. After about seven months, I got a meeting with Ovitz. Like I said, back then, this guy was God. The most influential man in show business. My heart was thumping. I told him I wanted to “represent talent” and that I would work for free. Unlike everyone else, he didn’t look at me like I was out of my mind. All he said was “I’m not sure how something like that would work…and there might be legal complications if we don’t pay you.” Right then, I knew I had a shot. So I told him he could pay me whatever he wanted. That he could keep a tab, so to speak, and if he wasn’t happy after six months, I’d write him a check for whatever I cost the firm. A week later I was a manager working for Mike Ovitz.

Unfortunately, about a year later, the company began to fall apart. Executives and clients (such as Leo DiCaprio, Cameron Diaz, Robin Williams) were leaving the firm. It was time for me to jump ship too. The good news was, I finally had enough street cred to get a job at major agency now.

I started my career at United Talent Agency, then moved to Endeavor. We represent lots of amazing, talented people, including Matt Damon, Ben Stiller, Adam Sandler, Martin Scorcese, Mark Walhberg, Steve Carrell, Jack Black and David E. Kelley (another ex-lawyer).

Any advice for bitter lawyers out there looking to change careers?

Follow your dream—and don’t be afraid to suck it up and make a fool out of yourself.

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Post image for Nick Santora: Producer, Prison Break

What’s your current job? What other projects are you working on?

The majority of my time is spent as a writer/co-executive producer on the Fox TV show “Prison Break.” I also created and serve as an executive producer on “Beauty & The Geek,” a reality show on The CW Network that is clearly based on my relationship with my wife. I write feature films as well and have two movies being released this year—I was a credited writer on The Punisher: War Zone and also wrote and produced The Longshots, starring Ice Cube. My first novel was also published this year – it’s called Slip & Fall. I’m proud to say it’s a national best seller and has been said by some to give the first real insight of what it is like to be a day-in/day-out courtroom litigator. In other words, it shows how shitty it really is.
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