careers
As the economy continues to stagnate, people from all walks of life turn to the legal academy. Just who are these “second career lawyers?”
QI just read a post on Lawyerist on the Future of Law Practice and am trying to research the best areas of law for a future law practice and where in the country they will be centered. Although I have been out of school for almost ten years and have ten years experience in business and as an entrepreneur, I am considering law school. As such, I am trying to get a feel for what the next top five booming industries will be, and where they will be centered, so that I may consider applying to law schools with that expertise or regional location. Or perhaps I should be seeking which fields of law practice (as opposed to general industry) will be the most prolific. In any case, I’m doing my due diligence to match my life experience with the right school in the right region for the right reason.
I currently live in California. I have a B.S. in economics and practiced commercial real estate for three years (and still have the license). For the past six years I have been working with an aviation start-up company, so I’m interested in real estate, aviation, M&A work, entertainment law, and possibly aerospace law. I’d appreciate any thoughts you would be willing to share.
Taking the entrepreneurial approach to getting a law job too far.
QI am a recent graduate from a TTT school and I graduated in the bottom half of the class (100/160). I worked for 2 out of the 3 years when I was in Law school and like to think I have a strong work ethic, however I was never strong at tests and nothing changed with law school exams. I do not know whether to pursue a career in law, but I do not know whether a degree from a TTT law school is worth anything in the real world. The most redeeming quality of me is that I have a very colorful background, which includes living on 3 continents and speaking 4 languages, but considering the mountain of rejection letters I have received it does not seem to be appealing to anyone. I really do not know what else to do, or what career path to consider, should I work for the government as my teachers have suggested, but who would want to hire a bottom of the barrel from a crappy law school. Please give me some of your valuable insight.
QI’m a “rising” 3L at a T1 university, a journal editor, a “B/B+” student, and a social caterpillar–I haven’t done enough in the way of networking to substantiate “butterfly” status, yet. I’m personable, make friends easily, and have always fared well in face-to-face interviews. Oh, and I’ve completely and utterly pissed away both law-school summers.
My first semester as a 1L (chiefly my torts class) derailed any plans I had that were contingent upon self-confidence; i.e., all of them. That isn’t to say that I didn’t understand the material. I was broad-sided by the final exam–my first law school exam–wherein I mysteriously omitted all discussion of legal duty. This was sufficient to earn me my first “C” since the undergraduate chemistry class that I attended three times. Although my other grades were average-to-respectable, that “C” and it’s four credit hour weight pulled me in to the low-middle third of the class, and sent me on a mental death spiral in to a world of self-loathing.
Keep Reading ⇒
Headlines from the Bitter Newsroom that make the 11th biggest lie in history:
• Headline reads: “Gritty 80-yr-old is probably city’s oldest law student.” Probably? The city’s? Don’t want to step out on a limb and expand the geographic scope of that statement a smidgen? You’re already using the word “probably.” For the love, he’s so old he couldn’t find grade records from his 1967 undergraduate degree. And what kind of backhanded adjective is “gritty” anyway? How the hell does that word factor? Regardless, here’s Uddhav Alkari, the 80-year-old Mumbai University law student. [Mumbai Mirror]
• Don’t’ tell Courtoons’ David Mills this, but apparently it’s hard to be an aspiring U.S. Attorney candidate when you’ve published drawn caricatures of your state’s senate minority leader wearing a cheerleader uniform. At least that’s what Louisville, KY lawyer Marc S. Murphy is realizing. He’s been discussed to run for U.S. Attorney, but his series of editorial cartoons for the Louisville Courier-Journal are maybe standing in his way because political officials he’s featured in his work don’t find him hilarious. [Main Justice]
• “Gone are the days when landing at a big law firm meant a long legal career.” And none of the new business models (ie: virtual law firms and solo shingle hanging) are realistic options for the newly minted seeking experience. That’s why panelists at the University of San Francisco Law School hashed out future ideas for young, wannabe-associates and offered such constructive feedback as, “You folks are going to have to figure out how to reengage yourselves.” Hmm, thx! [San Francisco Business Times]
• Answer: This £90 ($150) lingerie-and-blouse stipend is provided to senior female attorneys at British law firms such as Clifford Chance. Question: What is the “90 Nicker Knicker Allowance?” I’ll take BigLaw Unmentionables for $200, Alex. [Schott Blog via NYT]
• The simmering dish of Am Law 100 firms boiling down into a “Global 10” is certainly not vegan when you mix the “ranks of the Magic Circle” with the “cream of the U.S.” Sounds like a legal economic crisis chowder. [The Am Law Daily]
• A secretary, 43-year-old Mary Merten (who’s for sure a real world 6, law firm 9), has been charged in connection with the theft of more than $700,000 from corporate and personal accounts at the New York law firm where she worked. But out to steal Mary’s thunder is George Michael Perez. He admitted to the FBI that he defrauded the law firm where he was employed out of over $1 million. In a related story: Matthew Richardson has requested Mary’s number. [Newsday]
• You think being a laid-off or underpaid lawyer is harsh? At least you’re not the focus of debates about your original birth gender. Teenage South African runner Caster Semenya has a lot to run from in record time: Mainly anyone looking for a moose knuckle in her runners tights. She’s been ordered to undergo gender testing for purposes of competing, and Dewey & LeBoeuf’s sports law stud Jeffrey Kessler, who argued a legless man into the Beijing Olympics, is repping her pro bono. Best line in the article: “As for the nuts and bolts of the case…” Well, we hold these nuts to not be self-evident. [The Am Law Daily]
• An NYU law student can’t navigate something as simple as signing a lease—and here’s the long-winded story to prove it. [The New York Times]
• The WSJ Law Blog brought up a good quote today from William Shakespeare’s The Taming of the Shrew: “And do as adversaries do in law, Strive mightily but eat and drink as friends.” Loosely translated, it means you shouldn’t try to hire a hitman for $10K to kill a rival attorney you’ve known since 1982. Not cool, Irby Walker. Not cool. [TheSunNews.com]
• Ending your marriage in the divorce capital of London doesn’t always mean the man is going to get his bank accounts drained to support his ex. Women are getting progressively walloped now too as the legal system becomes less biased about the belief that “vulnerable women needed protection from men.” Some say if you do want to avoid all the financial risk, just don’t get married in the first place. “I would bet most family lawyers give that advice several times a year these days.” And I would bet they don’t. [Times Online]
The OCI season is in full swing. And while we totally understand that all schools are at different points in the process (first rounds, callbacks, etc.), everyone is freaked out about interviewing well enough to receive a job offer. An offer to actually work as a lawyer and not a paralegal or building contractor.
What’s standing between every law students and a sweet law firm gig? An interviewer. So, we caught up with some hiring partners around the country to ask them for a little help on how to ace (or, more precisely, how not to eff up) an interview.
Although we wish they all had been willing to go on the record, not all of the partners wanted to be publicly quoted. And that’s probably because the last thing they want to hear about in an interview is how you really like their advice on Bitter Lawyer. So for those who preferred to remain anonymous, we’ve identified them by their firm’s approximate AmLaw ranking and the city where they’re based.
What’s the toughest question you love to ask?
Alex Fugazzi, Partner, Snell & Wilmer LLP (Las Vegas):
“Why do you want to work in Las Vegas, or what is your connection to Las Vegas?
Because Las Vegas is billed as a fun, transient, resort town, we often get resumes from impressive candidates with East Coast pedigrees and absolutely no Nevada connection. Initial telephonic screening interviews beforehand are a good idea. I have had too many people schedule Friday interviews with our firm, only to find out they have a friend’s bachelor/bachelorette party that weekend or are looking to have fun in Las Vegas before going back to their geographic roots.
Surprisingly, students are often unprepared to answer this question. I get hesitant responses like, ‘I’ve spent some time on the Strip and really like it.’ One student told me she planned to be a professional poker player. Her plan was to play the tables all night and work all day. She reassured me that she was one of those people who ‘doesn’t need to sleep.’ I was not reassured.”
Andrew Struve, Partner, Manatt, Phelps & Phillips, LLP (Los Angeles):
“Why are you interested in our firm?
I want someone to show that they’ve done research about us. Or, I want to see if they’re just applying to the top 20 biggest firms in LA, and we happen to be on that list. That, I don’t want. It’s basically an opportunity to show interest in our clients or our practice areas. And it’s a good chance to set yourself apart from the pack.
But I don’t ask the silly questions like what your favorite book is. I don’t care about that, and I don’t think it’s fair or that it necessarily shows me anything.”
How does the resume factor into the interview? Do you ask about it? Ever caught someone in a lie or embellishment?
Anonymous Partner, AmLaw 75 (Los Angeles):
“The resume sort of guides the interview. I’ve never caught anyone really lying, but that’s probably because we do a serious background check like most firms. I don’t really worry about lies.
But I do try to get a feel for embellishments. If someone has a lot of groups and activities on their resume, I try and get a sense of whether they’re just doing some resume padding or if they’ve really taken an interest in something. Usually, when they just mention a group that they’ve joined, it’s a sign that they aren’t really doing a whole lot. If you’re going to put it on the resume, I’m looking for someone who has shown actual interest and maybe even leadership in that group.”
Anonymous Partner, AmLaw 150 (New York):
“The resume is important because it’s the talking point. I’m looking for interesting things there. Sometimes I’ll comment on personal interests that are list. I once had someone who had written a little bit about his interest in literature, but when I asked him, he really fumbled. It was clear he really didn’t know anything about literature and didn’t read much, which is fine, but you look really dumb when you try to make yourself out to be smarter than you are.”
Anonymous Partner, AmLaw 125 (Washington, D.C.):
“I don’t use the resume much at all. For me, the interview is about thinking on your feet and putting your best foot forward. That’s what I want to see. So, if I’m looking at your resume, you’ve probably already lost me, and I’m just trying to throw you a line by giving you something to say that’s interesting.
But, honestly, the resume is what gets you in the door. In the interview, I want to see if you’re someone I want to work with.”
What’s something you know now that you wish you had known when you were an interviewing law student?
Andrew Struve, Partner, Manatt, Phelps & Phillips, LLP (Los Angeles):
“One thing I didn’t know then was that the interviewer is actually trying to help you. They really do want you to do well because it means they have a good candidate. But I would have liked to have known then how much of a difference sincerity and enthusiasm makes. Lawyers are about helping people. If you can play to that subtly, do it. And if you can’t be subtle, be overt. Humanize yourself. When it’s a close call, enthusiasm makes all difference.”
Anonymous Partner, AmLaw 75 (Los Angeles):
“I think on some level I knew this intuitively, but it is painful to be the interviewer. It’s far more painful than the student who has to see a dozen partners in a day; I see three times the amount of people, and it’s pretty dull.
So, you really need to think of something to distinguish yourself. Don’t just ask me about the summer rotation, you can get that on the website, and I get asked questions like that all day. If you’re a student who’s on the bubble, figure out what’s interesting about you and tell me about that. The best interviews I’ve had were with people who shared interesting life stories. I like hearing stories that make people stand out.”
Think back to when you were a law student. What was your biggest fear going into an interview? What was the worst interview you had? What was the result?
Alex Fugazzi, Partner, Snell & Wilmer LLP (Las Vegas):
“My biggest fear was not being taken seriously by the lawyers interviewing me. I went straight from college to law school. Although I was fortunate enough to land an unpaid internship with a judge after my first year of law school, all my prior real-world work experience was completely unrelated to law—busboy, medical lab courier, landscape worker, things of that nature. So, my biggest fear was that I wouldn’t be able to convince lawyers that I was worthy of a six-figure income and could be trusted with their clients’ problems.
My worst interview was probably with a regional Midwest firm. Two attorneys who had children took me to dinner and spent the entire time discussing their kids, nannies, and the difficulty of juggling work and kids.
Now that I’m ten years older and have kids, I realize there was merit to many of the frustrations they expressed at that interview, but at that time I simply couldn’t relate. More importantly, I couldn’t figure out a way to get actively involved in their conversation.
A few days later, I received a very prompt, curt rejection letter, and I immediately blamed them. The lawyers that took me to dinner clearly didn’t know their audience, and they didn’t even try to get me involved. I still think that is true, but now that I’m on the other side of the fence, I also realize that I was equally to blame because I was unable to figure out how to actively participate in the interview.
Students need to be prepared to allow the interviewer to guide the interview. If they want to talk about their own hobbies and interests, the law student should act interested and at least ask questions and try to stay involved in the interview. As unfair and unfortunate as it may seem, it is the law student looking for the job, not the lawyer, so if students get stuck with a bad interviewer, they simply need to make the most of it. This is especially true of the dreaded lunch/dinner portion of the interview, which is supposedly less formal and intended to get to know the candidate rather than just discuss their academic and professional achievements.”
From the Hiring Partners Tell All Series
- OCI Hiring Partners Tell All. Catching an applicant in a lie, favorite interview questions, and what you wish you knew then that you only know now.
- OCI Hiring Partners Tell All: Part 2. Hiring partners’ worst interviews, including dealing with cocky name-droppers, admitting to sexism in an interview, and what to do if you bomb the interview in the first five minutes.
- OCI Hiring Partners Tell All: Part 3. Manners and looks. As in, do good looks actually matter? And is the handwritten thank-you note a relic of the 1990′s?
